Copy Protection Makes Dozens of Blu-Ray Titles Unplayable

[whosbest54]

Another reason to hold off on adopting blu-ray. I'm still holding off.

<http://www.nytimes.com/external/gigaom/2010/08/24/24gigaom-copy-protect
ion-makes-dozens-of-blu-ray-titles-un-41787.html?ref=technology>

or

http://tinyurl.com/3x2u39n

whosbest54

[Mike S.]

Post by whosbest54
Another reason to hold off on adopting blu-ray. I'm still holding off.

DVD had the same history. All it took was to buy a player from a company
with a good record of support, with firmware updates of sufficient
frequency to keep up with the new schemes. BD is more complicated, of
course, but the situation is analogous.

[Kimba W Lion]

Post by Mike S.
DVD had the same history. All it took was to buy a player from a company
with a good record of support, with firmware updates of sufficient
frequency to keep up with the new schemes.

What firmware updates? What new schemes? I don't recall any DVD player needing
updates to play ordinary DVDs.

[Mike S.]

Post by Kimba W Lion

Post by Mike S.
DVD had the same history. All it took was to buy a player from a company
with a good record of support, with firmware updates of sufficient
frequency to keep up with the new schemes.

What firmware updates? What new schemes? I don't recall any DVD player needing
updates to play ordinary DVDs.

Over the years, DVD releases from certain companies (Fox and Disney come
to mind) have caused problems with some DVD players. IIRC Sony even had
to reissue some discs because ARccOS caused to many problems.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARccOS_Protection

[Mutlley]

Post by Mike S.

Post by Kimba W Lion

Post by Mike S.
DVD had the same history. All it took was to buy a player from a company
with a good record of support, with firmware updates of sufficient
frequency to keep up with the new schemes.

What firmware updates? What new schemes? I don't recall any DVD player needing
updates to play ordinary DVDs.

Over the years, DVD releases from certain companies (Fox and Disney come
to mind) have caused problems with some DVD players. IIRC Sony even had
to reissue some discs because ARccOS caused to many problems.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARccOS_Protection

The only problem I remember was some companies added a piece of
crapaware to their DVDs called RCE which I think had something to do
with regional coding and was designed to prevent those suckers
outside R1 from playing cheap Amazon disks. This was about the year
2000. Most DVD players never had any issues with this crapware.

Blu-ray seems to be a moving target as far as the consumer goes. The
US movie industry goes off on a tangent again and the end users
suffer..

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Mutlley
Blu-ray seems to be a moving target as far as the consumer goes. The
US movie industry goes off on a tangent again and the end users
suffer..

If you don't play their game, you can't lose.

There's no suffering in this house.

[Doug Jacobs]

Post by Mutlley
The only problem I remember was some companies added a piece of
crapaware to their DVDs called RCE which I think had something to do
with regional coding and was designed to prevent those suckers
outside R1 from playing cheap Amazon disks. This was about the year
2000. Most DVD players never had any issues with this crapware.

Yes, RCE caused some problems on older players, and then the problems went
away - either due to people buying new players, or the companies sending
them a version without RCE on it.

But that was a single incident in DVD's history.

So far, it seems Blu-Ray has required a firmware upgrade every 4 to 6
months - which is a pretty bad track record if you ask me. Especially
since flashing firmware is quite a risky thing to do and can easily brick
a unit if it goes wrong.

Besides, isn't the whole point of having a "Standard" means NO MORE
CHANGES? We're on what, Blu-ray release 15 by now?

Post by Mutlley
Blu-ray seems to be a moving target as far as the consumer goes. The
US movie industry goes off on a tangent again and the end users
suffer..

[UCLAN]

Post by Doug Jacobs
So far, it seems Blu-Ray has required a firmware upgrade every 4 to 6
months - which is a pretty bad track record if you ask me. Especially
since flashing firmware is quite a risky thing to do and can easily brick
a unit if it goes wrong.

I'll repeat: Over two years and NO necessary firmware upgrades on
my Panasonic. It played the "infamous" Avatar BD with no problems.

[The Mighty T.B.]

Post by UCLAN

Post by Doug Jacobs
So far, it seems Blu-Ray has required a firmware upgrade every 4 to 6
months - which is a pretty bad track record if you ask me. Especially
since flashing firmware is quite a risky thing to do and can easily
brick a unit if it goes wrong.

I'll repeat: Over two years and NO necessary firmware upgrades on
my Panasonic. It played the "infamous" Avatar BD with no problems.

I have a BD30 and BD55 and the only title I've had a problem with is "Crank 2" which due to the way it was authored (it requires a memory card to support BD Live whether you used that feature or not) the video would appear as a postage stamp sized square part of the entire image. I *have* experienced several titles with rediculously long load times though as well as forced previews.

Also, I should note that I have had certain dvd players that required firmware updates, done by downloading the updates, burning the file to a cd-r and doing the update by playing the disc in the player. The Denon 3919 and 5910 are two such players.

T.B.

[Howard Brazee]

Post by Doug Jacobs
Besides, isn't the whole point of having a "Standard" means NO MORE
CHANGES? We're on what, Blu-ray release 15 by now?

So you're saying there never has been a "Standard"?

[Jim H]

Post by Doug Jacobs

Post by Mutlley
The only problem I remember was some companies added a piece of
crapaware to their DVDs called RCE which I think had something to do
with regional coding and was designed to prevent those suckers
outside R1 from playing cheap Amazon disks. This was about the year
2000. Most DVD players never had any issues with this crapware.

Yes, RCE caused some problems on older players, and then the problems went
away - either due to people buying new players, or the companies sending
them a version without RCE on it.
But that was a single incident in DVD's history.
So far, it seems Blu-Ray has required a firmware upgrade every 4 to 6
months - which is a pretty bad track record if you ask me. Especially
since flashing firmware is quite a risky thing to do and can easily brick
a unit if it goes wrong.
Besides, isn't the whole point of having a "Standard" means NO MORE
CHANGES? We're on what, Blu-ray release 15 by now?

Post by Mutlley
Blu-ray seems to be a moving target as far as the consumer goes. The
US movie industry goes off on a tangent again and the end users
suffer..

No! A standard does not mean "no more changes". It means that there is a
published set of rules, and if everyone adheres to them, then the
equipment and media should work together. I have read many standards,
but I've never found one that didn't have regular updates. The SCSI
standard is still being updated decades after it was established.

As far as older technology not having these problems, well most of them
were much simpler than Blu-Ray. But, I did have problems even with older
technology.

I had 78 RPM records, and the record player manufacturers stopped using
that speed. I had 16 2/3 RPM records, and encountered the same problem.
Don't even ask about 8-Track and cassette tape, with new formulations
requiring new equipment, or the tape deck heads would be worn out.

I've had several DVDs that just stopped playing, and some that were
fussy about which player they would work with. Flip disks were the
worst. I've had some disks that insisted on displaying subtitles. I've
had DVDs that are smart enough to expand to fill a 16x9 screen, and
others that I had to use zoom in order to fill the screen.

[Kimba W Lion]

Post by Jim H
No! A standard does not mean "no more changes". It means that there is a
published set of rules, and if everyone adheres to them, then the
equipment and media should work together. I have read many standards,
but I've never found one that didn't have regular updates. The SCSI
standard is still being updated decades after it was established.

But if Blu-Ray wants to achieve mass market acceptance, the manufacturers will
have to reach the stage where the players are like appliances: plug it in and
it works. Even with tomorrow's Blu-Ray discs.

Post by Jim H
I had 78 RPM records, and the record player manufacturers stopped using
that speed.

Not true. There have always been, and still are, 78-rpm turntables. But it's
still a bad example, more akin to complaining DVD players can't play Blu-Ray.
New formats are not the same thing as "this Blu-Ray release will play but that
Blu-Ray release will not play".

Post by Jim H
and cassette tape, with new formulations
requiring new equipment, or the tape deck heads would be worn out.

Again, not the same thing. Type I cassette tape always was, and still is,
available. Consumers had the choice to move to advanced formulations, and
pre-recorded tapes made with advanced formulations would still play on older
machines.

Post by Jim H
I've had several DVDs that just stopped playing, and some that were
fussy about which player they would work with.

That is either a disc defect or a player defect. That is not a change in the
DVD format that made the disc incompatible.

[John McWilliams]

Post by Kimba W Lion

Post by Jim H
No! A standard does not mean "no more changes". It means that there is a
published set of rules, and if everyone adheres to them, then the
equipment and media should work together. I have read many standards,
but I've never found one that didn't have regular updates. The SCSI
standard is still being updated decades after it was established.

But if Blu-Ray wants to achieve mass market acceptance, the manufacturers will
have to reach the stage where the players are like appliances: plug it in and
it works. Even with tomorrow's Blu-Ray discs.

What indicates that Blu-Ray hasn't achieved same?

As to "tomorrow's" disks, it's impossible to program the players to
anticipate all manner of new twists in the "extras" department.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by John McWilliams

Post by Kimba W Lion
But if Blu-Ray wants to achieve mass market acceptance, the manufacturers will
have to reach the stage where the players are like appliances: plug it in and
it works. Even with tomorrow's Blu-Ray discs.

What indicates that Blu-Ray hasn't achieved same?

see below

Post by John McWilliams
As to "tomorrow's" disks, it's impossible to program the players to
anticipate all manner of new twists in the "extras" department.

Um, that's why you finalize a standard and stick to it.

Don't make this something like Adobe Acrobat, where you (a) have to have
it connected to the net or it doesn't work, and (b) spend more time
updating it than you do using it.

If it's a consumer appliance, but it doesn't "just work" with all discs
that are labeled in one single common way, then it's not an appliance.
It's an overly intrusive game being played by the manufacturers, and in
the end they get their money only from idiot geeks who have to have "the
latest and greatest" at any and all cost, and who freak out if they're
behind even one second on that goal. Like this:

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/apple


Frankly, it should be against the law to label the disc a certain way if
it doesn't play in players that are sold to play discs labeled that way.

[John McWilliams]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by John McWilliams

Post by Kimba W Lion
But if Blu-Ray wants to achieve mass market acceptance, the manufacturers will
have to reach the stage where the players are like appliances: plug it in and
it works. Even with tomorrow's Blu-Ray discs.

What indicates that Blu-Ray hasn't achieved same?

see below

Post by John McWilliams
As to "tomorrow's" disks, it's impossible to program the players to
anticipate all manner of new twists in the "extras" department.

Um, that's why you finalize a standard and stick to it.
Don't make this something like Adobe Acrobat, where you (a) have to have
it connected to the net or it doesn't work, and (b) spend more time
updating it than you do using it.
If it's a consumer appliance, but it doesn't "just work" with all discs
that are labeled in one single common way, then it's not an appliance.
It's an overly intrusive game being played by the manufacturers, and in
the end they get their money only from idiot geeks who have to have "the
latest and greatest" at any and all cost, and who freak out if they're
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/apple
Frankly, it should be against the law to label the disc a certain way if
it doesn't play in players that are sold to play discs labeled that way.

I understand you don't like it, and I agree that some mfgs. have screwed
up. But much of the problem is the producers of disks.

And you don't indicate any figures that show that BD players haven't
achieved mass market acceptance- your non-acceptance to be sure, but not
the market's.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by John McWilliams

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Frankly, it should be against the law to label the disc a certain way if
it doesn't play in players that are sold to play discs labeled that way.

I understand you don't like it, and I agree that some mfgs. have screwed
up. But much of the problem is the producers of disks.

Then they should be sued for labeling the discs wrongly. Don't tell me
it works in a Blu-ray player when it doesn't work in a Blu-ray player.

[John McWilliams]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by John McWilliams

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Frankly, it should be against the law to label the disc a certain way if
it doesn't play in players that are sold to play discs labeled that way.

I understand you don't like it, and I agree that some mfgs. have screwed
up. But much of the problem is the producers of disks.

Then they should be sued for labeling the discs wrongly. Don't tell me
it works in a Blu-ray player when it doesn't work in a Blu-ray player.

Go for it!

Whinging on usenet produces nothing.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by John McWilliams

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Then they should be sued for labeling the discs wrongly. Don't tell me
it works in a Blu-ray player when it doesn't work in a Blu-ray player.

Go for it!
Whinging on usenet produces nothing.

I'm not sure what "whinging" is, but only losers tolerate consumer
electronics crap like discs not playing. "Oh, that's OK, I'm sure it
will play on my next player that's also labeled Blu-ray." Yeah, right.

[Doug Jacobs]

Post by John McWilliams
I understand you don't like it, and I agree that some mfgs. have screwed
up. But much of the problem is the producers of disks.
And you don't indicate any figures that show that BD players haven't
achieved mass market acceptance- your non-acceptance to be sure, but not
the market's.

I really don't care who's at fault when I get a confused call from my
in-laws that they put a "blu-ray disc" into their "blu-ray player" and it
didn't work. If the purpose of a "blu-ray player" is to play "blu-ray
discs" and something calling itself a "blu-ray disc" doesn't work, I think
they have a right to be upset.

Yes, I remember in the early days of DVD there were problems with players
and dual-layer discs, and other issues. But blu-ray is now, what, almost
5 years old and there are STILL issues with new so-called-blu-ray discs
and some older so-called-blu-ray players?

If some producer wants to make a "blu-ray disc" but do a bunch of things
that are outside the standard, it had better not break blu-ray players
that were built to the blu-ray standard. Otherwise, you shouldn't call it
"blu-ray".

Of course that's how you end up with silliness like "enhanced CDs" which
included multimedia content on an audio CD. You used a computer to access
the data portion of the CD. Problem was, some CD players didn't know
about data CDs, and would literally try to play the data partition as a
very long song...

[UCLAN]

Post by Doug Jacobs
Yes, I remember in the early days of DVD there were problems with players
and dual-layer discs, and other issues. But blu-ray is now, what, almost
5 years old and there are STILL issues with new so-called-blu-ray discs
and some older so-called-blu-ray players?

Yes, the same that some new PC software won't work on older PCs. Keep
your hardware up-to-date if you want to use the newest software. On
most BD players, that is as simple as an Ethernet connection.

[RickMerrill]

Post by Doug Jacobs

Post by John McWilliams
I understand you don't like it, and I agree that some mfgs. have screwed
up. But much of the problem is the producers of disks.
And you don't indicate any figures that show that BD players haven't
achieved mass market acceptance- your non-acceptance to be sure, but not
the market's.

I really don't care who's at fault when I get a confused call from my
in-laws that they put a "blu-ray disc" into their "blu-ray player" and it
didn't work. If the purpose of a "blu-ray player" is to play "blu-ray
discs" and something calling itself a "blu-ray disc" doesn't work,...

Can they see the player's own announcement on their TV?

[Gene E. Bloch]

Post by RickMerrill

Post by Doug Jacobs

Post by John McWilliams
I understand you don't like it, and I agree that some mfgs. have screwed
up. But much of the problem is the producers of disks.
And you don't indicate any figures that show that BD players haven't
achieved mass market acceptance- your non-acceptance to be sure, but not
the market's.

I really don't care who's at fault when I get a confused call from my
in-laws that they put a "blu-ray disc" into their "blu-ray player" and it
didn't work. If the purpose of a "blu-ray player" is to play "blu-ray
discs" and something calling itself a "blu-ray disc" doesn't work,...

Can they see the player's own announcement on their TV?

Excellent point!

[Howard Brazee]

On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 11:44:28 -0400, Kimba W Lion

Post by Kimba W Lion
But if Blu-Ray wants to achieve mass market acceptance, the manufacturers will
have to reach the stage where the players are like appliances: plug it in and
it works. Even with tomorrow's Blu-Ray discs.

I plugged mine in and it worked. I also plugged it into the
Internet for future upgrades.

My car has better tires than the manufacturer supplied. I found
that the recommended detergent that came with my washer didn't get out
a stain, so I got some stain remover for that unanticipated dirt.

Lots of things have achieved mass market acceptance that nevertheless
get upgraded. Most of the upgrades are more difficult & more
expensive than Blu-Ray player upgrades.

I remember when some people had UHF tuners sitting on top of their VHF
TV sets. That was the old style upgrade.

[Gene E. Bloch]

Post by Howard Brazee
On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 11:44:28 -0400, Kimba W Lion

Post by Kimba W Lion
But if Blu-Ray wants to achieve mass market acceptance, the manufacturers will
have to reach the stage where the players are like appliances: plug it in and
it works. Even with tomorrow's Blu-Ray discs.

I plugged mine in and it worked. I also plugged it into the
Internet for future upgrades.
My car has better tires than the manufacturer supplied. I found
that the recommended detergent that came with my washer didn't get out
a stain, so I got some stain remover for that unanticipated dirt.
Lots of things have achieved mass market acceptance that nevertheless
get upgraded. Most of the upgrades are more difficult & more
expensive than Blu-Ray player upgrades.
I remember when some people had UHF tuners sitting on top of their VHF
TV sets. That was the old style upgrade.

Don't forget color...

But wait, there's more: I remember in the late 40's people having big
magnifying lenses to put in front of their 8" TV sets (which were
monochrome, of course).

[RickMerrill]

Post by Gene E. Bloch

Post by Howard Brazee
On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 11:44:28 -0400, Kimba W Lion

Post by Kimba W Lion
But if Blu-Ray wants to achieve mass market acceptance, the manufacturers will
have to reach the stage where the players are like appliances: plug it in and
it works. Even with tomorrow's Blu-Ray discs.

I plugged mine in and it worked. I also plugged it into the
Internet for future upgrades.
My car has better tires than the manufacturer supplied. I found
that the recommended detergent that came with my washer didn't get out
a stain, so I got some stain remover for that unanticipated dirt.
Lots of things have achieved mass market acceptance that nevertheless
get upgraded. Most of the upgrades are more difficult& more
expensive than Blu-Ray player upgrades.
I remember when some people had UHF tuners sitting on top of their VHF
TV sets. That was the old style upgrade.

Don't forget color...
But wait, there's more: I remember in the late 40's people having big
magnifying lenses to put in front of their 8" TV sets (which were
monochrome, of course).

You may still find those fresnel lenzes on ebay!

[Gene E. Bloch]

Post by RickMerrill

Post by Gene E. Bloch

Post by Howard Brazee
On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 11:44:28 -0400, Kimba W Lion

Post by Kimba W Lion
But if Blu-Ray wants to achieve mass market acceptance, the manufacturers will
have to reach the stage where the players are like appliances: plug it in and
it works. Even with tomorrow's Blu-Ray discs.

I plugged mine in and it worked. I also plugged it into the
Internet for future upgrades.
My car has better tires than the manufacturer supplied. I found
that the recommended detergent that came with my washer didn't get out
a stain, so I got some stain remover for that unanticipated dirt.
Lots of things have achieved mass market acceptance that nevertheless
get upgraded. Most of the upgrades are more difficult& more
expensive than Blu-Ray player upgrades.
I remember when some people had UHF tuners sitting on top of their VHF
TV sets. That was the old style upgrade.

Don't forget color...
But wait, there's more: I remember in the late 40's people having big
magnifying lenses to put in front of their 8" TV sets (which were
monochrome, of course).

You may still find those fresnel lenzes on ebay!

The ones I remember best were the big fat plano-convex plastic shells
filled with water. What a kluge!

I haven't looked for a long time, but Edmund Scientific used to have
fairly large Fresnel lenses, and IIRC I've also seen them in stationery
stores in sizes like 8.5"x11".

[Doug Jacobs]

Post by Howard Brazee
I plugged mine in and it worked. I also plugged it into the
Internet for future upgrades.

That's part of the problem.

First, not everyone in the US (much less the world) has high speed
internet access, nor is going to know to call the manufacturer to request
an update CD for their player. Even then what are you going to say?
"Thank you for purchasing Foo: The Movie on blu-ray. Please wait 6 to 8
weeks for your manufacturer to ship you an update CD so you can actually
watch the movie."

Second, it's going to lead to the same bad and lazy development cycles
that you see in PC software. Why work to release a mostly bug free
product? You can just release a patch later on. This results in some
games being shipped before they're even at beta quality. The practice has
gotten so ingrained into the market that even the installation guides
insist you go to the company's website and download the latest
patch.

Post by Howard Brazee
Lots of things have achieved mass market acceptance that nevertheless
get upgraded. Most of the upgrades are more difficult & more
expensive than Blu-Ray player upgrades.

But you agree that the product should operate out of the box, yes?
Upgrades should be optional - not a requirement.

Imagine coming home to find out that the latest pot roast you bought from
the grocery store is incompatible with the firmware in your oven. Oops!
Time to upgrade!

This whole thing about having to upgrade the blu-ray player every so often
also then confuses the market. It's as though you literally have blu-ray
1.0, 1.1, 1.2, and so on. "New from Sony, the blu-ray 3000. Compatible
with blu-ray up to 1.4"

Remember, we aren't talking about a computer here, but a consumer
appliance. Plug & Play. Not Plug, Play, Fail, Grumble, Upgrade?, Play,
Fail, try again.

[Howard Brazee]

Post by Doug Jacobs
But you agree that the product should operate out of the box, yes?
Upgrades should be optional - not a requirement.

And it does.

Post by Doug Jacobs
Imagine coming home to find out that the latest pot roast you bought from
the grocery store is incompatible with the firmware in your oven. Oops!
Time to upgrade!

Imagine coming home to find out that the latest whole pig is
incompatible with the design of your oven. Oops! Time to upgrade!

[Jim H]

Post by Howard Brazee
Imagine coming home to find out that the latest whole pig is
incompatible with the design of your oven. Oops! Time to upgrade!

I had that happen, except it was a "take and bake pizza" from Costco.
The GE oven had a convection fan on the back wall. It made the oven too
shallow to fit the pizza. Luckily, they upgraded the design, and
recessed the fan in the follow on model. Of course, I bought a new house
in order to upgrade.

Yea, I know that this isn't the same thing, but this discussion has
gotten pretty silly. Electronic device have gotten much more complex,
and there is no going back. It reminds me of the time they replaced the
hour glass with a round dial with pointers. No one knew how to use it.
Certainly, nobody's grandmother knew how to use it.

--
Jim

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Jim H
I had that happen, except it was a "take and bake pizza" from Costco.
The GE oven had a convection fan on the back wall. It made the oven too
shallow to fit the pizza. Luckily, they upgraded the design, and
recessed the fan in the follow on model. Of course, I bought a new house
in order to upgrade.
Yea, I know that this isn't the same thing, but this discussion has
gotten pretty silly. Electronic device have gotten much more complex,
and there is no going back.

Bullshit.

Accepting mediocrity is bullshit. Accepting that the entertainment
industry wants to control your living room at your expense is bullshit.

[Jim H]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Jim H
I had that happen, except it was a "take and bake pizza" from Costco.
The GE oven had a convection fan on the back wall. It made the oven too
shallow to fit the pizza. Luckily, they upgraded the design, and
recessed the fan in the follow on model. Of course, I bought a new house
in order to upgrade.
Yea, I know that this isn't the same thing, but this discussion has
gotten pretty silly. Electronic device have gotten much more complex,
and there is no going back.

Bullshit.
Accepting mediocrity is bullshit. Accepting that the entertainment
industry wants to control your living room at your expense is bullshit.

I am quite happy with the current state of audio-video. The equipment is
working well for me. The picture quality is the best it has ever been.
The DTS audio is crisp and clear. The PS3 even upscales DVDs so well
that they look great also.

With a Blu-ray, and a good 5.1 system, it is like being in a theater. If
this is mediocrty, it is the best mediocrity that I've seen or heard.
Not only that, but with automatic updates to my PS3, and DVR, they keep
making it even better.

But, you are well within your rights to not accept it. If you don't like
it, vote with your wallet. When they get it good enough for you, then
move up from VHS or DVD, as you like. If they are not develooping the
needed improvements fast enough for your liking, then you can develop
better ways to do these things. That is what freedom of choice is all
about.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Jim H

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
Accepting mediocrity is bullshit. Accepting that the entertainment
industry wants to control your living room at your expense is bullshit.

I am quite happy with the current state of audio-video. The equipment is
working well for me. The picture quality is the best it has ever been.
The DTS audio is crisp and clear. The PS3 even upscales DVDs so well
that they look great also.
With a Blu-ray, and a good 5.1 system, it is like being in a theater. If
this is mediocrty, it is the best mediocrity that I've seen or heard.

I'm not saying that any given instant of seeing and hearing is bullshit.

It's getting to that point with any random disc that's the problem.

[Gene E. Bloch]

Post by Doug Jacobs
Imagine coming home to find out that the latest pot roast you bought from
the grocery store is incompatible with the firmware in your oven.

Pot roast is a mature technology.

[John McWilliams]

Post by Gene E. Bloch

Post by Doug Jacobs
Imagine coming home to find out that the latest pot roast you bought from
the grocery store is incompatible with the firmware in your oven.

Pot roast is a mature technology.

Hah! That was pot roast 1.00 -> 1.84.... Now, with PR 2.00, you have to
upgrade your oven's firmware....

Although probably the better PR is one made from scratch; no software
needed at all......

[Jim H]

Post by John McWilliams

Post by Gene E. Bloch

Post by Doug Jacobs
Imagine coming home to find out that the latest pot roast you bought from
the grocery store is incompatible with the firmware in your oven.

Pot roast is a mature technology.

Hah! That was pot roast 1.00 -> 1.84.... Now, with PR 2.00, you have to
upgrade your oven's firmware....
Although probably the better PR is one made from scratch; no software
needed at all......

To paraphrase Carl Sagan... If you want to make a pot roast from
scratch, first you must invent the universe.

[Gene E. Bloch]

Post by Jim H

Post by John McWilliams

Post by Gene E. Bloch

Post by Doug Jacobs
Imagine coming home to find out that the latest pot roast you bought from
the grocery store is incompatible with the firmware in your oven.

Pot roast is a mature technology.

Hah! That was pot roast 1.00 -> 1.84.... Now, with PR 2.00, you have to
upgrade your oven's firmware....
Although probably the better PR is one made from scratch; no software
needed at all......

To paraphrase Carl Sagan... If you want to make a pot roast from
scratch, first you must invent the universe.

Well, it was worth my silly post to get the responses from you two guys.
I had a good chuckle from y'all :-)

[Les Cargill]

Post by Doug Jacobs

Post by Mutlley
The only problem I remember was some companies added a piece of
crapaware to their DVDs called RCE which I think had something to do
with regional coding and was designed to prevent those suckers
outside R1 from playing cheap Amazon disks. This was about the year
2000. Most DVD players never had any issues with this crapware.

Yes, RCE caused some problems on older players, and then the problems went
away - either due to people buying new players, or the companies sending
them a version without RCE on it.
But that was a single incident in DVD's history.
So far, it seems Blu-Ray has required a firmware upgrade every 4 to 6
months - which is a pretty bad track record if you ask me. Especially
since flashing firmware is quite a risky thing to do and can easily brick
a unit if it goes wrong.

It *SHOULD NOT BE* risky; it just is because it's implemented
poorly in consumer electronics.

Post by Doug Jacobs
Besides, isn't the whole point of having a "Standard" means NO MORE
CHANGES? We're on what, Blu-ray release 15 by now?

Post by Mutlley
Blu-ray seems to be a moving target as far as the consumer goes. The
US movie industry goes off on a tangent again and the end users
suffer..

--
Les Cargill

[Doug Jacobs]

Post by Les Cargill
It *SHOULD NOT BE* risky; it just is because it's implemented
poorly in consumer electronics.

By its very nature, flashing firmware is a risky venture. If it goes
awry, there is no way to "undo", and in some cases, physical damage to the
chips may make retries impossible.

Flashing firmware is considered as last resort by tech support - not
something developers have everyone do on a regular basis. If that's
literally "the blu-ray way" then someone failed.

[Matthew L Martin]

Post by Doug Jacobs

Post by Les Cargill
It *SHOULD NOT BE* risky; it just is because it's implemented
poorly in consumer electronics.

By its very nature, flashing firmware is a risky venture. If it goes
awry, there is no way to "undo", and in some cases, physical damage to the
chips may make retries impossible.
Flashing firmware is considered as last resort by tech support - not
something developers have everyone do on a regular basis. If that's
literally "the blu-ray way" then someone failed.

Having designed and implemented two stage firmware upgrade systems (OS
free and NetBSD/linux) a very long time ago, I know that brick free
upgrades can be done. All it takes is an upgrade application that isn't
part of the normal system.

It wasn't all that hard to do.

Matthew

[Les Cargill]

Post by Doug Jacobs

Post by Les Cargill
It *SHOULD NOT BE* risky; it just is because it's implemented
poorly in consumer electronics.

By its very nature, flashing firmware is a risky venture. If it goes
awry, there is no way to "undo", and in some cases, physical damage to the
chips may make retries impossible.

I respectfully disagree. There are multiple strategies which
reduce the risk to effectively zero; if the product can
afford something like a distinct boot PROM, it is then
zero. The boot FLASH needs to mount the disc and burn the
other FLASH on power up.

Post by Doug Jacobs
Flashing firmware is considered as last resort by tech support - not
something developers have everyone do on a regular basis. If that's
literally "the blu-ray way" then someone failed.

I agree. I'm not 100% sure I know why this cultural shift has
occurred, but I have a hunch.

--
Les Cargill

[Gene E. Bloch]

Post by Les Cargill

Post by Doug Jacobs

Post by Les Cargill
It *SHOULD NOT BE* risky; it just is because it's implemented
poorly in consumer electronics.

By its very nature, flashing firmware is a risky venture. If it goes
awry, there is no way to "undo", and in some cases, physical damage to the
chips may make retries impossible.

I respectfully disagree. There are multiple strategies which
reduce the risk to effectively zero; if the product can
afford something like a distinct boot PROM, it is then
zero. The boot FLASH needs to mount the disc and burn the
other FLASH on power up.

Post by Doug Jacobs
Flashing firmware is considered as last resort by tech support - not
something developers have everyone do on a regular basis. If that's
literally "the blu-ray way" then someone failed.

I agree. I'm not 100% sure I know why this cultural shift has
occurred, but I have a hunch.

This question come to mind: how do you update or upgrade a Blu-ray drive
or other similar consumer device without sending a firmware update to
the device? Do you require the user to take it to the dealer, as one
does with a car?

I am addressing the above to anyone who hates the idea of firmware
updates.

[Doug Jacobs]

Post by Gene E. Bloch
This question come to mind: how do you update or upgrade a Blu-ray drive
or other similar consumer device without sending a firmware update to
the device? Do you require the user to take it to the dealer, as one
does with a car?
I am addressing the above to anyone who hates the idea of firmware
updates.

In the past, yes, you took the device into the dealer.

Nowadays, the consumer can do it themselves by either burning the update
image onto a CD and inserting it into their play. Network enabled devices
can go fetch the update from the internet and then install it itself.

However, until blu-ray came along, this was an extremely rare operation
and definitely not something you did on a regular basis.

My problem isn't with the ease of the process but with the assumption that
it's something that people should do on a regular basis.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Doug Jacobs

Post by Gene E. Bloch
I am addressing the above to anyone who hates the idea of firmware
updates.

In the past, yes, you took the device into the dealer.
Nowadays, the consumer can do it themselves by either burning the update
image onto a CD and inserting it into their play. Network enabled devices
can go fetch the update from the internet and then install it itself.
However, until blu-ray came along, this was an extremely rare operation
and definitely not something you did on a regular basis.
My problem isn't with the ease of the process but with the assumption that
it's something that people should do on a regular basis.

And on top of that is that it's not easy and/or bulletproof. Way, way
too many things can happen during an update that will brick the
"appliance"--one of which is "whoops, we programmed that updater code
wrong".

[UCLAN]

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
And on top of that is that it's not easy and/or bulletproof. Way, way
too many things can happen during an update that will brick the
"appliance"--one of which is "whoops, we programmed that updater code
wrong".

And I'm sure you can provide dozens of examples of that actually
happening with BD players, no?

[Gene E. Bloch]

Post by UCLAN

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
And on top of that is that it's not easy and/or bulletproof. Way, way
too many things can happen during an update that will brick the
"appliance"--one of which is "whoops, we programmed that updater code
wrong".

And I'm sure you can provide dozens of examples of that actually
happening with BD players, no?

Obviously...


not.

I think my sarcasm a couple of posts up was too mild or too poker faced
or something.

Probably true of this one too :-)


To disambiguate: I agree with you, UCLAN.

[sorry-spammers]

Post by Doug Jacobs

Post by Gene E. Bloch
This question come to mind: how do you update or upgrade a Blu-ray drive
or other similar consumer device without sending a firmware update to
the device? Do you require the user to take it to the dealer, as one
does with a car?
I am addressing the above to anyone who hates the idea of firmware
updates.

In the past, yes, you took the device into the dealer.
Nowadays, the consumer can do it themselves by either burning the update
image onto a CD and inserting it into their play. Network enabled devices
can go fetch the update from the internet and then install it itself.
However, until blu-ray came along, this was an extremely rare operation
and definitely not something you did on a regular basis.
My problem isn't with the ease of the process but with the assumption that
it's something that people should do on a regular basis.

This is of course something that's far easier said than done if:

A) the consumer is essentially computer-illiterate.
B) the consumer doesn't have a high-speed network connection.

[UCLAN]

Post by sorry-spammers
A) the consumer is essentially computer-illiterate.
B) the consumer doesn't have a high-speed network connection.

C) the consumer fails to read the ******* manual.

[Daniel W. Rouse Jr.]

Post by UCLAN

Post by sorry-spammers
A) the consumer is essentially computer-illiterate.
B) the consumer doesn't have a high-speed network connection.

C) the consumer fails to read the ******* manual.

D) It is also due to some consumers that are willing to accept early release
alpha or beta quality products with dropped features or playback problems
(oops, to be fixed in a later update) rather than insisting on a static
final product comforming to an immutable standard instead of a
specification.

[UCLAN]

Post by Daniel W. Rouse Jr.

Post by UCLAN

Post by sorry-spammers
A) the consumer is essentially computer-illiterate.
B) the consumer doesn't have a high-speed network connection.

C) the consumer fails to read the ******* manual.

D) It is also due to some consumers that are willing to accept early
release alpha or beta quality products with dropped features or playback
problems (oops, to be fixed in a later update) rather than insisting on
a static final product comforming to an immutable standard instead of a
specification.

It is the *software* manufacturers that keep changing things. Hardware
manufacturers luckily provide an easy way to make any necessary upgrades.
Much easier than with the PC market, I'd say.

[Jim H]

Post by UCLAN

Post by Daniel W. Rouse Jr.

Post by UCLAN

Post by sorry-spammers
A) the consumer is essentially computer-illiterate.
B) the consumer doesn't have a high-speed network connection.

C) the consumer fails to read the ******* manual.

D) It is also due to some consumers that are willing to accept early
release alpha or beta quality products with dropped features or
playback problems (oops, to be fixed in a later update) rather than
insisting on a static final product comforming to an immutable
standard instead of a specification.

It is the *software* manufacturers that keep changing things. Hardware
manufacturers luckily provide an easy way to make any necessary upgrades.
Much easier than with the PC market, I'd say.

What is funny, is that there is another thread where someone wants to
play a DVD with a .WTV file on it. The advice was to convert the file to
a format that the DVD player could handle, and to see what formats are
supported by that DVD player.

They may be doing something that is outside of the mainstream consumer
realm, but I suspect that they are mainstream consumers. It is just that
many mainstream consumers are more sophisticated than they used to be.

Personally, with My PS3, I've never had any problem playing just about
any disc that I put into it. On the other hand, I've seen some DVD
players that wouldn't play some DVDs.

Waiting for an immutable standard may work for some, but then they must
be currently in the market for a VHS or DVD player. The VHS standard was
updated quite a few times, but it is pretty stable now. I think that the
DVD standard may be stable by now also, but I'm not sure.

iPhones, iPads, PCs and most communication devices are being updated
regularly, but the old black telephone... that one is set in stone by now.

[Gene E. Bloch]

Post by Jim H

Post by UCLAN

Post by Daniel W. Rouse Jr.

Post by UCLAN

Post by sorry-spammers
A) the consumer is essentially computer-illiterate.
B) the consumer doesn't have a high-speed network connection.

C) the consumer fails to read the ******* manual.

D) It is also due to some consumers that are willing to accept early
release alpha or beta quality products with dropped features or
playback problems (oops, to be fixed in a later update) rather than
insisting on a static final product comforming to an immutable
standard instead of a specification.

It is the *software* manufacturers that keep changing things. Hardware
manufacturers luckily provide an easy way to make any necessary upgrades.
Much easier than with the PC market, I'd say.

What is funny, is that there is another thread where someone wants to
play a DVD with a .WTV file on it. The advice was to convert the file to
a format that the DVD player could handle, and to see what formats are
supported by that DVD player.
They may be doing something that is outside of the mainstream consumer
realm, but I suspect that they are mainstream consumers. It is just that
many mainstream consumers are more sophisticated than they used to be.
Personally, with My PS3, I've never had any problem playing just about
any disc that I put into it. On the other hand, I've seen some DVD
players that wouldn't play some DVDs.
Waiting for an immutable standard may work for some, but then they must
be currently in the market for a VHS or DVD player. The VHS standard was
updated quite a few times, but it is pretty stable now. I think that the
DVD standard may be stable by now also, but I'm not sure.
iPhones, iPads, PCs and most communication devices are being updated
regularly, but the old black telephone... that one is set in stone by now.

Part of why I keep one around (although mine's beige; is that a
potential problem?).

[Doug Jacobs]

Post by Les Cargill
I respectfully disagree. There are multiple strategies which
reduce the risk to effectively zero; if the product can
afford something like a distinct boot PROM, it is then
zero. The boot FLASH needs to mount the disc and burn the
other FLASH on power up.

That assumes that the manufacturer implements it that way.

They may instead opt to just save money and go with a simplier system.
Yeah, it's more risky, and yeah, it means a few units will die during
upgrade, but to the company it's cheaper than adding extra hardware to
solve a problem that they weren't thinking was going to be used very often.

After all, prior to blu-ray, how many times would you flash the firmware
of your AV devices? Maybe once during its lifetime, and even then only
because there was a specific problem you needed fixed?

Meanwhile, my PS3 had gotten at least 5 updates that had something related
to its blu-ray software in it. (actual updates have been much more
frequent, but not all of them involved the blu-ray player.) The next big
update is already being planned for later this year to add 3d support.

Post by Les Cargill

Post by Doug Jacobs
Flashing firmware is considered as last resort by tech support - not
something developers have everyone do on a regular basis. If that's
literally "the blu-ray way" then someone failed.

I agree. I'm not 100% sure I know why this cultural shift has
occurred, but I have a hunch.

[Matthew L Martin]

Post by Doug Jacobs

Post by Les Cargill
I respectfully disagree. There are multiple strategies which
reduce the risk to effectively zero; if the product can
afford something like a distinct boot PROM, it is then
zero. The boot FLASH needs to mount the disc and burn the
other FLASH on power up.

That assumes that the manufacturer implements it that way.
They may instead opt to just save money and go with a simplier system.
Yeah, it's more risky, and yeah, it means a few units will die during
upgrade, but to the company it's cheaper than adding extra hardware to
solve a problem that they weren't thinking was going to be used very often.

No extra hardware is required. I implemented inplace, brick proof,
firmware upgrades for the first time in 1997. I've done this more than
once. It isn't that hard as long as you have enough ram to hold the
update software.

That's as many clues as I'm willing to give away for free:-)

Matthew

[UCLAN]

Post by Doug Jacobs
They may instead opt to just save money and go with a simplier system.
Yeah, it's more risky, and yeah, it means a few units will die during
upgrade, but to the company it's cheaper than adding extra hardware to
solve a problem that they weren't thinking was going to be used very often.

Yeah. They thought it would be so rare that they built in Ethernet ports,
made automatic updates possible from a menu selection, and dedicated more
than one page of the manual to it.

[Howard Brazee]

Post by Mike S.
DVD had the same history. All it took was to buy a player from a company
with a good record of support, with firmware updates of sufficient
frequency to keep up with the new schemes. BD is more complicated, of
course, but the situation is analogous.

Early DVD players didn't have Internet connections to upgrade
firmware. That's a big advantage now.

[RickMerrill]

Post by Howard Brazee

Post by Mike S.
DVD had the same history. All it took was to buy a player from a company
with a good record of support, with firmware updates of sufficient
frequency to keep up with the new schemes. BD is more complicated, of
course, but the situation is analogous.

Early DVD players didn't have Internet connections to upgrade
firmware. That's a big advantage now.

riiight: it lets the companies get the product to market
before the testing is completed! inevitable i suppose

[Mike S.]

Post by RickMerrill

Post by Howard Brazee

Post by Mike S.
DVD had the same history. All it took was to buy a player from a company
with a good record of support, with firmware updates of sufficient
frequency to keep up with the new schemes. BD is more complicated, of
course, but the situation is analogous.

Early DVD players didn't have Internet connections to upgrade
firmware. That's a big advantage now.

riiight: it lets the companies get the product to market
before the testing is completed! inevitable i suppose

You can't test for compatibility with stuff that doesn't yet exist. Copy
protection schemes are completely in the hands of the publishers. If they
create one that "breaks" a player that is already on the market - often
by deliberately violating previously agreed-upon indistry standards, you
can't just expect the player manufacturer to have been clairvoyant about
that and predicted/tested it in advance.


expect

[RickMerrill]

Post by Mike S.

Post by RickMerrill

Post by Howard Brazee

Post by Mike S.
DVD had the same history. All it took was to buy a player from a company
with a good record of support, with firmware updates of sufficient
frequency to keep up with the new schemes. BD is more complicated, of
course, but the situation is analogous.

Early DVD players didn't have Internet connections to upgrade
firmware. That's a big advantage now.

riiight: it lets the companies get the product to market
before the testing is completed! inevitable i suppose

You can't test for compatibility with stuff that doesn't yet exist. Copy
protection schemes are completely in the hands of the publishers. If they
create one that "breaks" a player that is already on the market - often
by deliberately violating previously agreed-upon indistry standards, you
can't just expect the player manufacturer to have been clairvoyant about
that and predicted/tested it in advance.
expect

Excellent point - plus there continue to be new codex, interfaces,
and protocols.

[Doug Jacobs]

Post by Mike S.
You can't test for compatibility with stuff that doesn't yet exist. Copy
protection schemes are completely in the hands of the publishers. If they
create one that "breaks" a player that is already on the market - often
by deliberately violating previously agreed-upon indistry standards, you
can't just expect the player manufacturer to have been clairvoyant about
that and predicted/tested it in advance.

Again, that's why we call them STANDARDS.

If you come out with a blu-ray that doesn't adhere to the blu-ray
standard, it's not a blu-ray disc! It may be "blu-ray like" you can call
it "enhanced blu-ray" or some garbage like that but if you call it a
"blu-ray" then it's perfectly reasonable to assume it's going to play in
anything that says it's implemented the blu-ray spec.

This isn't a consumer-friendly practice. Even saying "oh, well, the
player can update itself on the internet" isn't going to do folks who
don't have broadband internet any good.

[UCLAN]

Post by Doug Jacobs
This isn't a consumer-friendly practice. Even saying "oh, well, the
player can update itself on the internet" isn't going to do folks who
don't have broadband internet any good.

Then simply have the manufacturer send you update CDs when firmware
updates are issued. Most companies do it at no charge. This is an
example of making a "mountain out of a mole hill." Move along, folks.
Or just take your meds...[I suspect that most of the griping is coming
from left over fans of the HD-DVD format.]

[Doug Jacobs]

Post by UCLAN
Then simply have the manufacturer send you update CDs when firmware
updates are issued. Most companies do it at no charge. This is an
example of making a "mountain out of a mole hill." Move along, folks.
Or just take your meds...[I suspect that most of the griping is coming
from left over fans of the HD-DVD format.]

Sure, call the manufacturer and then wait for the update to arrive so you can
watch the movie you just bought? Oh and if the update fails, and breaks
your player, then what? Most warranties don't cover botched updates, and
some even say altering the software on your player instantly violates the
warranty. Whee.

This also assumes that the consumer even knows to do this. They're simply
going to see a "blu-ray" disc that doesn't work in their "blu-ray" player,
and assume something is broken.

[Howard Brazee]

Post by Doug Jacobs
This also assumes that the consumer even knows to do this. They're simply
going to see a "blu-ray" disc that doesn't work in their "blu-ray" player,
and assume something is broken.

Which is what happened with DVDs when I brought home CDs.
Incompatibilities happen - what's new is the option to easily upgrade.

Apparently, you miss the old days when your old equipment was obsolete
without being able to upgrade it. And apparently you resent the new
equipment that is more adaptable.

[Alan]

Post by Howard Brazee
Which is what happened with DVDs when I brought home CDs.
Incompatibilities happen - what's new is the option to easily upgrade.

I put CDs in my DVD player, and it plays them just fine. Of course,
it never has had an update.

Post by Howard Brazee
Apparently, you miss the old days when your old equipment was obsolete
without being able to upgrade it. And apparently you resent the new
equipment that is more adaptable.

Nope. My DVD player is 13 years old, and still plays DVDs just fine.

Alan

[Daniel who wants to know]

Post by Howard Brazee
Which is what happened with DVDs when I brought home CDs.
Incompatibilities happen - what's new is the option to easily upgrade.
Apparently, you miss the old days when your old equipment was obsolete
without being able to upgrade it. And apparently you resent the new
equipment that is more adaptable.
--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."
- James Madison

The one I personally remember were the players that cheaped out and used the
red laser for playing DVDs and CDs and hence couldn't play cd-r media. The
ones with an IR laser were fine.

[UCLAN]

Post by Doug Jacobs
This also assumes that the consumer even knows to do this. They're simply
going to see a "blu-ray" disc that doesn't work in their "blu-ray" player,
and assume something is broken.

It's called "RTFM", or "Read The ******* Manual. For consumers that can't
read, I have no easy suggestions. The manual for my 2-YEAR OLD player has
3 pages dedicated to firmware updates. If one wants to bury his head in the
sand and pretend they don't exist, or whine on about their existence, that
is your right. But for most of us, it's a non issue.

[Stewart]

Post by Doug Jacobs

Post by Mike S.
You can't test for compatibility with stuff that doesn't yet exist. Copy
protection schemes are completely in the hands of the publishers. If they
create one that "breaks" a player that is already on the market - often
by deliberately violating previously agreed-upon indistry
standards, you
can't just expect the player manufacturer to have been clairvoyant about
that and predicted/tested it in advance.

Again, that's why we call them STANDARDS.
If you come out with a blu-ray that doesn't adhere to the blu-ray
standard, it's not a blu-ray disc! It may be "blu-ray like" you can call
it "enhanced blu-ray" or some garbage like that but if you call it a
"blu-ray" then it's perfectly reasonable to assume it's going to play in
anything that says it's implemented the blu-ray spec.
This isn't a consumer-friendly practice. Even saying "oh, well, the
player can update itself on the internet" isn't going to do folks who
don't have broadband internet any good.
--
It's not broken. It's...advanced.

It seems as if it would be annoying. I prefer to watch a movie when I
put it in the player, not after downloading and installing upgrades.
Of course, I haven't had one yet that caused it to happen on my
PS3.......

[UCLAN]

Post by Stewart
It seems as if it would be annoying. I prefer to watch a movie when I
put it in the player, not after downloading and installing upgrades.

Most newer BD players have Ethernet connections and check for updates
automatically as soon as you power them up, or however you want based
on how you set up that feature.

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Post by UCLAN
Most newer BD players have Ethernet connections and check for updates
automatically as soon as you power them up, or however you want based
on how you set up that feature.

Is there a way to let them do this without also enabling their less savoury
Internet-access functions?

[The Mighty T.B.]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by UCLAN
Most newer BD players have Ethernet connections and check for updates
automatically as soon as you power them up, or however you want based
on how you set up that feature.

Is there a way to let them do this without also enabling their less savoury
Internet-access functions?

Yes. For most if not all of the major manufacturers, you can go to their websites, download the Firmware upgrade file, burn it to a cd-r, insert the cd-r in your player and follow the directions posted on the website to do the firmware upgrade. It's not very tough to do and you pretty much have to willfully ignore the simple steps to do it to brick your player.

T.B.

[Doug Jacobs]

Post by The Mighty T.B.
Yes. For most if not all of the major manufacturers, you can go to their
websites, download the Firmware upgrade file, burn it to a cd-r, insert the
cd-r in your player and follow the directions posted on the website to do
the firmware upgrade. It's not very tough to do and you pretty much have
to willfully ignore the simple steps to do it to brick your player.

Spoken by someone who's obviously never had to do tech support (even
family tech support.)

Sorry but going to the website, downloading an image and burning it to CD
is still a fairly tech-savvy operation.

Let's put it this way. Would your grandmother be able to do it without
any coaching or assistance from you? No? Then it's too complicated. I'm
not being facetious or exaggerating. Ask anyone who does customer tech
support for a consumer product.

Consumer electronics have been horribly designed for decades, if you ask me.
This thing with having consumers apply their own firmware updates is just the
latest in a long line of stupid design decisions.

[The Mighty T.B.]

Post by Doug Jacobs

Post by The Mighty T.B.
Yes. For most if not all of the major manufacturers, you can go to their
websites, download the Firmware upgrade file, burn it to a cd-r, insert the
cd-r in your player and follow the directions posted on the website to do
the firmware upgrade. It's not very tough to do and you pretty much have
to willfully ignore the simple steps to do it to brick your player.

Spoken by someone who's obviously never had to do tech support (even
family tech support.)
Sorry but going to the website, downloading an image and burning it to CD
is still a fairly tech-savvy operation.
Let's put it this way. Would your grandmother be able to do it without
any coaching or assistance from you? No? Then it's too complicated. I'm
not being facetious or exaggerating. Ask anyone who does customer tech
support for a consumer product.
Consumer electronics have been horribly designed for decades, if you ask me.
This thing with having consumers apply their own firmware updates is just the
latest in a long line of stupid design decisions.

You know, I don't really disagree with your basic point, but I've talked my very un-tech savy in-laws through this very procedure for their BR player over the phone with no major hassle. It's not that difficult.

And if it is, you can take your BR player to Best Buy and one of those Geek squad kids will do it for you for only $30! HA!

But all kidding aside, I agree you should be able to play any BR title on any BR player right outta the box without dealing with all this BS. I actually got in a pretty big argument over this on an industry forum with the guy who was on the authoring team for the "Crank 2" Blu-ray disc when he said it was authored to play only on profile 2 players that *had* to have either an external memory card on onboard memory because they wanted consumers to buy the newest players. That has one of those wtf moments.

T.B.

[Stewart]

Post by UCLAN

Post by Stewart
It seems as if it would be annoying. I prefer to watch a movie
when I put it in the player, not after downloading and installing
upgrades.

Most newer BD players have Ethernet connections and check for
updates
automatically as soon as you power them up, or however you want based
on how you set up that feature.

One may not want all updates if there is nothing askew. From what
I've seen, auto updates can be turned off.

[UCLAN]

Post by UCLAN
Most newer BD players have Ethernet connections and check for updates
automatically as soon as you power them up, or however you want based on
how you set up that feature.

One may not want all updates if there is nothing askew. From what I've
seen, auto updates can be turned off.

Yup. That is why I wrote "...however you want based on how you set up that
feature."

[Doug Jacobs]

Post by UCLAN
Most newer BD players have Ethernet connections and check for updates
automatically as soon as you power them up, or however you want based
on how you set up that feature.

Most households do not have ethernet running through their walls, much less
a broadband internet connection.

Even if you have the internet connection, and the home network, are you
really going to want to wait for your player to update because it detected
a new firmware version? I don't know about you but when I turn on my
blu-ray player to watch a movie, I'd rather watch the movie NOW.

[Jim H]

Post by Doug Jacobs

Post by UCLAN
Most newer BD players have Ethernet connections and check for updates
automatically as soon as you power them up, or however you want based
on how you set up that feature.

Most households do not have ethernet running through their walls, much less
a broadband internet connection.
Even if you have the internet connection, and the home network, are you
really going to want to wait for your player to update because it detected
a new firmware version? I don't know about you but when I turn on my
blu-ray player to watch a movie, I'd rather watch the movie NOW.

You may be right about most households not having a broadband internet
connection. I don't know anyone who doesn't have one. Even the people
who haven't considered buying a Blu-ray player have one. But, I'm sure
there are people who don't.

As far as having to wait for an update, this happens regularly with my
DirecTV DVR. It installs upgrades when DirecTV decides. I have
occasionally missed recordings because of it, but I'll take the free
upgrades anyway.

I usually don't have a need for instant gratification. If I did, I would
have already seen the movie in the theater.

--
Jim

[Alan]

Post by Stewart
It seems as if it would be annoying. I prefer to watch a movie when I
put it in the player, not after downloading and installing upgrades.
Of course, I haven't had one yet that caused it to happen on my
PS3.......

Most of us don't want to pay extra for video games. However, your
experience shows that it is possible to build a player that works, the BD
player manufacturers just are not willing to put the effort into doing it.


Alan

[Stewart]

Post by Alan

Post by Stewart
It seems as if it would be annoying. I prefer to watch a movie when I
put it in the player, not after downloading and installing upgrades.
Of course, I haven't had one yet that caused it to happen on my
PS3.......

Most of us don't want to pay extra for video games. However, your
experience shows that it is possible to build a player that works, the BD
player manufacturers just are not willing to put the effort into doing it.
Alan

The kids and grandkids use it for games....I just wanted the player.

[Jim H]

Post by Stewart

Post by Alan

Post by Stewart
It seems as if it would be annoying. I prefer to watch a movie when I
put it in the player, not after downloading and installing upgrades.
Of course, I haven't had one yet that caused it to happen on my
PS3.......

Most of us don't want to pay extra for video games. However, your
experience shows that it is possible to build a player that works, the BD
player manufacturers just are not willing to put the effort into doing it.
Alan

The kids and grandkids use it for games....I just wanted the player.

I just bought mine as a player. I play games on my PC. I read the
reviews, and it wasa always among the top rated BD players.

What I got was not only a great BD player, but a great audio-video
streamer as well. I run "PS3 Media Server" (free software) on my PC, and
I can play all of my music, videos, and picture slide-shows on my PS3
using a wireless connection. And, the PS3 didn't cost more than any of
the other top rated BD players.

--
Jim

[Doug Jacobs]

Post by Alan

Post by Stewart
It seems as if it would be annoying. I prefer to watch a movie when I
put it in the player, not after downloading and installing upgrades.
Of course, I haven't had one yet that caused it to happen on my
PS3.......

Most of us don't want to pay extra for video games. However, your
experience shows that it is possible to build a player that works, the BD
player manufacturers just are not willing to put the effort into doing it.

Price aside, it should be pointed out that the PS3 does system updates on
a monthly basis - and they're not small or quick either. It takes my PS3
the better part of an hour to finish downloading and applying its
updates. Oh and don't forget about the times when Sony released a bad
update. Yeah, that must have been fun for the thousands of users who had
their PS3 bricked by a bad update. Some of them couldn't retry a later
update to fix their console either.

Anyone who deals with IT/Admin issues at work knows you never apply an
update the first day it's released. You always wait for other suckers to
volunteer as test subjects. If their systems don't die, maybe it's safe
to pick up that update after a week or a month later.

I really don't want to have to start applying IT policies to my home
electronics. Honestly when I come home from work, I just want to turn on
the thing and play a movie in it. Why does it have to be so complicated
now?

[Stewart]

Post by Doug Jacobs

Post by Alan

Post by Stewart
It seems as if it would be annoying. I prefer to watch a movie when I
put it in the player, not after downloading and installing
upgrades.
Of course, I haven't had one yet that caused it to happen on my
PS3.......

Most of us don't want to pay extra for video games. However, your
experience shows that it is possible to build a player that works, the BD
player manufacturers just are not willing to put the effort into doing it.

Price aside, it should be pointed out that the PS3 does system
updates on
a monthly basis - and they're not small or quick either. It takes my PS3
the better part of an hour to finish downloading and applying its
updates. Oh and don't forget about the times when Sony released a bad
update. Yeah, that must have been fun for the thousands of users who had
their PS3 bricked by a bad update. Some of them couldn't retry a later
update to fix their console either.

Turn them off. My motto has always been, if it ain't broke, don't fix
it. I only update if there is a specific need. Even then, I'll look
up some reviews of this latest update just to make sure I don't run
into that situation.

Same thing for my windoze drivers. I won't update a video (or other)
driver unless there is a specific issue that affects me that is
addressed with it.

Post by Doug Jacobs
Anyone who deals with IT/Admin issues at work knows you never apply an
update the first day it's released. You always wait for other
suckers to
volunteer as test subjects. If their systems don't die, maybe it's safe
to pick up that update after a week or a month later.
I really don't want to have to start applying IT policies to my home
electronics. Honestly when I come home from work, I just want to turn on
the thing and play a movie in it. Why does it have to be so
complicated
now?
--
It's not broken. It's...advanced.

[Kimba W Lion]

Post by Doug Jacobs
Honestly when I come home from work, I just want to turn on
the thing and play a movie in it. Why does it have to be so complicated
now?

Because it can be. Each new step in the digital evolution of home electronics
is about giving more control to the companies. The update issue that started
this thread was not about fixing a bug in the firmware, it was about a 'new
and improved' copy protection scheme. One of the key aspects of blu-ray, and
the reason it will take over the marketplace, is that the companies want its
copy protection, and that is designed to be continually updated. This is
because all the movie companies are convinced that their customers are their
enemies, and as their enemies we have no right to expect the common decency of
having our players just plain work.

Regardless of any hiccups in the past you may want to bring up, DVD has
acheived the "appliance" stage. You can buy any DVD player from $10 on up and
rightfully expect it will play any DVD*, even home-recorded ones. This is what
the average consumer expects, even if the average geek does not. Blu-Ray has
not achived this status yet, and considering the design of the
continually-changing copy protection, it may never achieve it. The fact that
releasing a movie with Blu-Ray and DVD in the same package is considered a
viable workaround to the problem shows the immaturity of the Blu-Ray system.
("We don't know if the BD disc will work, but we're sure the DVD will.")

That's what this argument boils down to: some people don't mind continually
updating their hardware, other people just want it to work as advertised. I
don't know that Blu-Ray was designed to ever achieve the latter.

*Region coding is another matter, and one that mystifies many people,
just like the update issue, although the average consumer may never run up
against it.

[Howard Brazee]

On Tue, 31 Aug 2010 21:31:37 -0400, Kimba W Lion

Post by Kimba W Lion
That's what this argument boils down to: some people don't mind continually
updating their hardware, other people just want it to work as advertised.

And many expect both at the same time.

Post by Kimba W Lion
I don't know that Blu-Ray was designed to ever achieve the latter.

Whether that was part of its design or not - that's what we got. They
work as advertised.

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

Post by Howard Brazee

Post by Kimba W Lion
That's what this argument boils down to: some people don't mind continually
updating their hardware, other people just want it to work as advertised.

And many expect both at the same time.

No, not at all.

If it says "Blu-ray" on the front, it should play "Blu-ray" discs.
That's an appliance.

If it needs constant updating, then it's not an appliance. It's a
science experiment.

That YOU have chosen to fill your life with science experiments, doesn't
mean it's normal by any means.

[Howard Brazee]

On Wed, 01 Sep 2010 09:40:12 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Howard Brazee

Post by Kimba W Lion
That's what this argument boils down to: some people don't mind continually
updating their hardware, other people just want it to work as advertised.

And many expect both at the same time.

No, not at all.
If it says "Blu-ray" on the front, it should play "Blu-ray" discs.
That's an appliance.

And it plays Blu-ray disks.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
If it needs constant updating, then it's not an appliance. It's a
science experiment.

What is this experiment?

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
That YOU have chosen to fill your life with science experiments, doesn't
mean it's normal by any means.

That's not why it's normal. But look around you. The world is full
of stuff that get updated. That's normal.

Just because you expect the world to stay still doesn't mean it's
normal by any means.

[r***@hotmail.com]

Post by Howard Brazee
On Wed, 01 Sep 2010 09:40:12 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty

Post by Howard Brazee

Post by Kimba W Lion
That's what this argument boils down to: some people don't mind
continually updating their hardware, other people just want it to
work as advertised.

And many expect both at the same time.

No, not at all.
If it says "Blu-ray" on the front, it should play "Blu-ray" discs.
That's an appliance.

And it plays Blu-ray disks.

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
If it needs constant updating, then it's not an appliance. It's a
science experiment.

What is this experiment?

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
That YOU have chosen to fill your life with science experiments, doesn't
mean it's normal by any means.

That's not why it's normal. But look around you. The world is full
of stuff that get updated. That's normal.
Just because you expect the world to stay still doesn't mean it's
normal by any means.

Howard, you don't understand. Elmo comes from the backwoods
of Tennessee. If he has half of his teeth, then all is good.

Raoul

[Doug Jacobs]

Post by Howard Brazee

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
That YOU have chosen to fill your life with science experiments, doesn't
mean it's normal by any means.

That's not why it's normal. But look around you. The world is full
of stuff that get updated. That's normal.

Is it? My car doesn't require updates. My stove doesn't require
updates. My TV doesn't require updates. My DVR does its own
updates...and often kills itself in the process (bad QA there!)

Up until just a few years ago, about the only thing in the house that was
updated on a regular basis were my computers, and even THAT process was
so often hit-or-miss, that I turned off the auto-updater on all PCs I
administer (including the in-laws') because I'd rather be there when an
update go bad, rather than trying to explain to mom using my bad Mandarin
over the phone to find out what does it mean when she says "Facebook shi
bu hao!" (On the plus side, they like having us visit)

Post by Howard Brazee
Just because you expect the world to stay still doesn't mean it's
normal by any means.

I'm not saying change can't happen but that it should be handled in a
better fashion.

Look at the perscription drug market right now. How many times do you see
this cycle repeated on TV?

Do you have (symptoms)? Then you need (new-drug). Ask your doctor
about (new-drug)! Note may cause (long list of scary sounding symptoms -
many worse than the symptoms you're trying to treat in the first place!)

Then, some months later

Did you take (new-drug) and develop (new symptom) or die? Then call
1-800-sue-them to join our class action suit!

[Doug Jacobs]

Post by Kimba W Lion
Because it can be.

So that means that it must be?

Post by Kimba W Lion
Each new step in the digital evolution of home electronics
is about giving more control to the companies. The update issue that started
this thread was not about fixing a bug in the firmware, it was about a 'new
and improved' copy protection scheme. One of the key aspects of blu-ray, and
the reason it will take over the marketplace, is that the companies want its
copy protection, and that is designed to be continually updated. This is
because all the movie companies are convinced that their customers are their
enemies, and as their enemies we have no right to expect the common decency of
having our players just plain work.

Consumers aren't going to care what the companies want.

Companies wanted Divx to succeed. Consumers said "No." and Divx died -
dealing what turned out to be a major blow to Circuit City in the process.

Consumer just want to watch movies. If some piece of technology makes it
too expensive or difficult to watch movies, then consumers aren't going to
buy it, no matter how good the copy protection is.

Blu-ray is already at a distinct disadvantage because it's still more
expensive than DVD, and doesn't deliver nearly the same jaw dropping
difference you got when going from VHS to DVD. The industry already shot
itself in the foot by not working out the whole blu-ray/HD-DVD
disagreement BEFORE going to market. Asking consumers to choose between 2
very expensive (at the time) formats just hurt the overall uptake of the
new technology.

Now on top of all that, consumers now have to worry about their latest
movie even being compatible with the firmware version in their player?
That's not consumer-friendly.

What happens when people start bringing home rental discs from RedBox or
some other kiosk service and it turns out they need an upgrade?
Regardless if they have internet and a CD burner, they're going to think
"I never had to deal with this with DVD..."

Another product that has regular updates is the Sony Playstation Portable
(PSP) which can play games or videos, etc. If you bought a game that
required a later version of firmware than what you had on your PSP, the
update was included on the disc. Much how a lot of PC games would come
with the version of DirectX it required. I know there are too many differnt
players and models out there to put firmware updates for all of them onto
movie discs but at least that would have been a more consumer-friendly
solution.

Post by Kimba W Lion
Regardless of any hiccups in the past you may want to bring up, DVD has
acheived the "appliance" stage. You can buy any DVD player from $10 on up and
rightfully expect it will play any DVD*, even home-recorded ones. This is what
the average consumer expects, even if the average geek does not. Blu-Ray has
not achived this status yet, and considering the design of the
continually-changing copy protection, it may never achieve it. The fact that
releasing a movie with Blu-Ray and DVD in the same package is considered a
viable workaround to the problem shows the immaturity of the Blu-Ray system.
("We don't know if the BD disc will work, but we're sure the DVD will.")

I would agree with you if blu-ray players were still only being sold
through AV boutiques, where only high-end users shop for cutting edge
products. However, once you start selling blu-ray players in Walmart,
you're saying "hey, this is a robust technology that's about as easy to
use as your toaster."

(yes, I realize that Walmart also sells computers - even computers with
Linux on them(w00t), and yes I agree that Windows nor Linux are anywhere close
to the "easy to use and robust like your toaster" level, and yes I think
that's a big problem...but a whole other topic.)

Actually I thought the purpose of the blu-ray/DVD dual packaging was that
while people may have a blu-ray player in their living room, their
bedroom, children's play room, laptop(s), portable players, and minivans
are still going to be DVD.

Anyways, not all releases are packing a DVD, nor do you get a DVD version
when you deal with a rental service - which right now, is how most folks
are watching blu-rays because they certainly aren't buying them.

Post by Kimba W Lion
That's what this argument boils down to: some people don't mind continually
updating their hardware, other people just want it to work as advertised. I
don't know that Blu-Ray was designed to ever achieve the latter.

If Blu-ray is intended to be a consumer product, the common functionality
(e.g. playing a movie) should always work. More advanced features may be
added through updates if that is desired, but you shouldn't drag the
average user through that mess unless it's absolutely necessary.

Post by Kimba W Lion
*Region coding is another matter, and one that mystifies many people,
just like the update issue, although the average consumer may never run up
against it.

Agreed, although I think it's affected more people than the companies
anticipated - and not just for the reasons that led them to implement
region coding either.

[Kimba W Lion]

Post by Doug Jacobs
Actually I thought the purpose of the blu-ray/DVD dual packaging was that
while people may have a blu-ray player in their living room, their
bedroom, children's play room, laptop(s), portable players, and minivans
are still going to be DVD.

According to the NYT article referenced at the beginning of this thread,
"Luckily, more and more studios have started to provide some sort of immediate
remedy for issues like these. Customers of the upcoming Karate Kid Blu-ray,
for example, will also find a regular DVD of the same movie in the box. So if
you have to wait a year for a working Blu-ray firmware update, you’ll at least
have something to keep you busy."
...which is what I was referring to.

[John McWilliams]

Post by Doug Jacobs
If Blu-ray is intended to be a consumer product, the common functionality
(e.g. playing a movie) should always work. More advanced features may be
added through updates if that is desired, but you shouldn't drag the
average user through that mess unless it's absolutely necessary.

Are you maintaining that BD players are not consumer products? Does
their market acceptance fall below some clear boundary saying they're
just a fad, or eschewed by the majority??

(This is not to indicate I don't agree with the majority of complaints.)

[Doug Jacobs]

Post by Howard Brazee
Early DVD players didn't have Internet connections to upgrade
firmware. That's a big advantage now.

You could say the same thing about PC software - especially games.

In the past, before the internet was so popular, getting updates required
you to dial into the company's BBS and download them onto floppies.

Nowadays, the game itself can go to the company's website and download the
patches that inevitably spring up, sometimes just days, after a game is
released.

Unfortunately this has also led to game companies shipping essentially
beta and even alpha quality code with the mentality of "I'll patch it later."

What's next? Having one's stove explode because of defective firmware,
only to be told "Well, you should have upgraded your firmware first!"

Yes, that's why I bought an appliance, because I love having to update it
all the time!

[Howard Brazee]

Post by Doug Jacobs
You could say the same thing about PC software - especially games.

Actually, the OS is a better fit here.

Post by Doug Jacobs
In the past, before the internet was so popular, getting updates required
you to dial into the company's BBS and download them onto floppies.
Nowadays, the game itself can go to the company's website and download the
patches that inevitably spring up, sometimes just days, after a game is
released.
Unfortunately this has also led to game companies shipping essentially
beta and even alpha quality code with the mentality of "I'll patch it later."
What's next? Having one's stove explode because of defective firmware,
only to be told "Well, you should have upgraded your firmware first!"
Yes, that's why I bought an appliance, because I love having to update it
all the time!

So maybe you should have waited to buy your computer until they finish
the operating system. Trouble is, the only time an operating system
is "finished" is when the maker decides not to fix any more bugs nor
offer any improvements because you need to get its next version
instead.

I'd love to be able to download improvements to my car, my stove, my
furnace, and anything else that could benefit by improved technology.

[RickMerrill]

Post by Howard Brazee

Post by Doug Jacobs
You could say the same thing about PC software - especially games.

Actually, the OS is a better fit here.

Post by Doug Jacobs
In the past, before the internet was so popular, getting updates required
you to dial into the company's BBS and download them onto floppies.
Nowadays, the game itself can go to the company's website and download the
patches that inevitably spring up, sometimes just days, after a game is
released.
Unfortunately this has also led to game companies shipping essentially
beta and even alpha quality code with the mentality of "I'll patch it later."
What's next? Having one's stove explode because of defective firmware,
only to be told "Well, you should have upgraded your firmware first!"
Yes, that's why I bought an appliance, because I love having to update it
all the time!

So maybe you should have waited to buy your computer until they finish
the operating system. Trouble is, the only time an operating system
is "finished" is when the maker decides not to fix any more bugs nor
offer any improvements because you need to get its next version
instead.
I'd love to be able to download improvements to my car, my stove, my
furnace, and anything else that could benefit by improved technology.

tHIS IS a good debate! People were so annoyed at MS frequent updates
that MS usually provides updates on a once-a-month basis.

The software updates have to be secure, transparent, and NOT require
power continuity - in other words, if your power fails during an
update, the appliance just tries again later.

secure: it would not be good for you-know-who to turn on all our
stoves at the same time ...

transparent: updates occur at a time of day when you have never used the thing.

[Howard Brazee]

On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 15:30:08 -0400, RickMerrill

Post by RickMerrill
transparent: updates occur at a time of day when you have never used the thing.

At least do the downloads in background.

[Doug Jacobs]

Post by Howard Brazee
So maybe you should have waited to buy your computer until they finish
the operating system. Trouble is, the only time an operating system
is "finished" is when the maker decides not to fix any more bugs nor
offer any improvements because you need to get its next version
instead.

Oh, I have. I deliberately put off buying a new computer around the time
Vista launced because I wasn't convinced that Vista was worth it. When I
did buy a computer, I put XP on it. XP ain't broke, so I wasn't going to
fix it by upgrading to Vista.

Unless it's a severe security issue, I don't go patching and updating my
computer willy-nilly. It ain't broke, so why go risking it? I'd rather
have a stable robust system as opposed to one that spends more of its time
updating and patching itself than actually doing useful work for me.

Auto updating is equally dangerous. All it takes is one bad update, and
your system will happily lobotomize itself. Oh and don't think it doesn't
happen... McAfee had an incident a few months ago that pretty much made
1000s of corporate PCs inoperable. A friend of mine worked for a company
that was affected by this, and pretty much everyone endedup with a few
free days of vacation while their IT staff literally worked around the
clock fixing the damage. I have no idea how many home systems were
affected. I'm guessing most home users just blamed Windows, and broke out
their OS restore discs.

As for other things, like my car, I don't want them updated. Ever.
Validating the software in something mundane like a virus scanner is
complicated enough. Even then, if you make a mistake, no one's going to
die from it. But something like my engine computer's firmware? Uh-uh.
You ain't upgrading that unless there's a life-or-death reason for it -
like "engine will explode" or something equally serious.

Post by Howard Brazee
I'd love to be able to download improvements to my car, my stove, my
furnace, and anything else that could benefit by improved technology.

Yeah, until your furnace crashes during that cold snap, or your car's
engine misfires due to a division by zero error....

Just because it COULD be possible to do something doesn't mean we SHOULD.

[whosbest54]

Post by Mike S.

Post by whosbest54
Another reason to hold off on adopting blu-ray. I'm still holding off.

DVD had the same history. All it took was to buy a player from a company
with a good record of support, with firmware updates of sufficient
frequency to keep up with the new schemes. BD is more complicated, of
course, but the situation is analogous.

I was a fairly early DVD adopter and have no recollection of ever seeing
this issue with it, at least for the discs and players I've used over the
years.

Maybe there were some short lived copy protection additions that didn't
fall into the adopted standards that caused grief for some players, but I
never saw it.

And then there were those divx discs and players, but I never bought into
that either.

whosbest54

[Frank Malczewski]

Post by whosbest54

Post by Mike S.

Post by whosbest54
Another reason to hold off on adopting blu-ray. I'm still holding off.

DVD had the same history. All it took was to buy a player from a company
with a good record of support, with firmware updates of sufficient
frequency to keep up with the new schemes. BD is more complicated, of
course, but the situation is analogous.

I was a fairly early DVD adopter and have no recollection of ever seeing
this issue with it, at least for the discs and players I've used over the
years.
Maybe there were some short lived copy protection additions that didn't
fall into the adopted standards that caused grief for some players, but I
never saw it.
And then there were those divx discs and players, but I never bought into
that either.
whosbest54

When The Matrix came out on DVD it was one of the worst (best?) titles
for testing player compatibility. Many different players had problems
with its "follow the white rabbit" feature, and had to have updated
firmware in order to play it properly.

Additionally, other players had problems with audio sync. Again,
firmware updates were used to correct these problems.

That was what the early days of DVD were like. Pretty sure this was
discussed rather heavily in some of these newsgroups back then. It
didn't all just work once DVDs started to come out.

Thing is, you had to send your player in for repair in order to get
them, as firmware update discs were mostly only available to repair
centers.

Or, if you were lucky/persistent, you could trade in your player to get
newer firmware as store stock was replenished. Did that twice with my
first (Sony) player to get firmware fixes for these problems. Bought it
at Best Buy, traded it in within 30 days, ended up with a player that
fortunately had newer firmware; did it again to get even newer firmware.
And then The Matrix DVD player with sound in sync and following the
white rabbit worked. Cannot recall whether this was second or third
generation Sony player, but it was pretty early.

And I also have several DVDs that only play correctly in some players,
not all. (I've had maybe half a dozen over the years, and even now they
each have their discs that don't work right.)

So nothing much has really changed, except that now you can download
firmware from the internet (and install either via CD/DVD or directly
through your ethernet connection). Probably will always have to deal
with bugs (or new features that don't work right).

--Frank


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ***@netfront.net ---

[UCLAN]

Post by whosbest54
Another reason to hold off on adopting blu-ray. I'm still holding off.
<http://www.nytimes.com/external/gigaom/2010/08/24/24gigaom-copy-protect
ion-makes-dozens-of-blu-ray-titles-un-41787.html?ref=technology>
or
http://tinyurl.com/3x2u39n

Seems to me it's another reason to stay away from Samsung. I've *never*
had a BD fail to play on my 2-year old Panasonic, with the ORIGINAL
firmware that came with it. That's right, the old original firmware. I've
never had a reason to update. Odd that the article mentioned only Samsung
BD players.

[Mike S.]

Post by UCLAN

Post by whosbest54
Another reason to hold off on adopting blu-ray. I'm still holding off.
<http://www.nytimes.com/external/gigaom/2010/08/24/24gigaom-copy-protect
ion-makes-dozens-of-blu-ray-titles-un-41787.html?ref=technology>
or
http://tinyurl.com/3x2u39n

Seems to me it's another reason to stay away from Samsung. I've *never*
had a BD fail to play on my 2-year old Panasonic, with the ORIGINAL
firmware that came with it. That's right, the old original firmware. I've
never had a reason to update. Odd that the article mentioned only Samsung
BD players.

Samsung and LG, in general, have a poor track record with regard to BD
compatibility with new authoring schemes, and timely firmware updates to
address the problems. Read any forum dedicated to those brands and you'll
see the complaints.

[John McWilliams]

Post by UCLAN

Another reason to hold off on adopting blu-ray. I'm still holding off.
<http://www.nytimes.com/external/gigaom/2010/08/24/24gigaom-copy-protect
ion-makes-dozens-of-blu-ray-titles-un-41787.html?ref=technology>
or
http://tinyurl.com/3x2u39n

Seems to me it's another reason to stay away from Samsung. I've *never*
had a BD fail to play on my 2-year old Panasonic, with the ORIGINAL
firmware that came with it. That's right, the old original firmware. I've
never had a reason to update. Odd that the article mentioned only Samsung
BD players.

I've no problem with my Samsung....... they probably didn't agree to up
their ad placements with the NYTimes.....

It's ironic, perhaps, that the reason there are upgrades for players is
to allow them to play new content and different formats than were extant
at the time the players were fabricated. Of course there can and will be
glitches from untested incompatibilities and new software, not to
mention botched updates. Is there any indication the article isn't based
on a small sample??

-
john mcwilliams

[Jim]

If it bothers you that much get a PS3.